Evicted for smoking off property?
I didn’t smoke or vape when I rented from my landlord who has a no smoking policy for his units and property. No problem, I go out to the city owned sidewalk and sit on the curb, off property. I always pick up my butts so their aren’t complaints or anything for my landlord to get upset about. I’ve been honest with him the whole time and told him I was smoking (bc I didn’t want him to hear it from anyone else) I assured him I don’t do it on property or in the unit and cameras in and out of my apartment can confirm that. Tonight he told me I needed to quit because it’s a non smoking unit and he doesn’t want to have to pursue anything bc he would have to drive 70 miles each way to attend court. What? I told him again I’m not smoking on the property or in his unit and he said it doesn’t matter, he can evict me for being a smoker. So my question is that, can he evict me, can he dictate what I do off property and evict me for smoking? He was pretty confident he can until I reminded him about my cameras. Then when I said if this needs to go to court(since he threatened it first) then that’s what we will do, he then nervously said “well hopefully we don’t have to.” Can I be evicted for smoking off of his property and at least 30 feet from anyones door?
@Aryan Strauss Welcome to BP! I did a little research and came across this information. I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice but from the "Law School of Google." The link is directly from the Utah Courts website which more thoroughly details the information. I grabbed snippets pertaining to your particular case and listed them below.
Utah Courts Three Day Nuisance Notice
"A three-day nuisance notice does not give you a chance to remedy a problem. It simply requires that you move out within three days after being served the notice. A nuisance is something which interferes with someone else's comfortable enjoyment of their life or property. Anything which injures health, is indecent, offensive to the senses, or interferes with someone's free use of property can be a nuisance. There are two types of nuisance, criminal nuisance and non-criminal nuisance:"
"Non-Criminal Nuisance Example; Smoking and the tenant's tobacco smoke drifts into another rental unit, but only if the landlord prohibits smoking in all units."
Based on the language, it would appear 'smoking' only pertains to inside or within the distance set of the rental unit. I don't think anyone could be evicted simply because they are a smoker but only if they violate the rules that are set.
Not to dig too deep into it, are there other problems you are facing with the landlord? Or perhaps the only tenant who is smoking in the entire unit and neighbors are saying something about it? Unfortunately, if it goes to a legal proceeding, you will most likely need legal representation. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Hi Aryan,
You might want to find a different place to live (where this is not an issue).
I'm not saying right or wrong here, I'm just considering the PITA factor of it.
https://www.apartments.com/provo-ut/?bb=3ussm6gxlNj365inG&so=2
Good Luck!
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
Dude, if I had a dollar for every smoking tenant who insists, just like you, that they NEVER SMOKE IN THE UNIT...they always lie. I'm not saying you're a liar, I'm just saying you'll find your argument has a very poor track record in general. I used to smoke myself. I used to be a tenant. And, hell yeah, I lied, too. When it was pouring rain out there, I'd put in a box fan in the window, sit behind it, and blow my smoke out through the fan. I couldn't smell it in the apartment. I thought no one else could, either. Until I quit smoking. Then I realized my little one-bedroom reeked of stale tobacco smoke.
If I lived 70 miles away from my unit, I wouldn't want someone like you in my property, either. It's nothing personal. You're just a bad bet, and the longer you stay, the more pervasive your stench will be in the unit. Even though you don't probably smell it (again, I never did when I smoked), your clothes stink, your fingers stink, your breath stinks. The miasma of your smoking (even outdoors) lingers indoors and sets in for people whose sense of smell isn't trained to ignore the stench. It will cost money and effort to get rid of that stench permanently.
Quote from @Jim K.:
Dude, if I had a dollar for every smoking tenant who insists, just like you, that they NEVER SMOKE IN THE UNIT...they always lie. I'm not saying you're a liar, I'm just saying you'll find your argument has a very poor track record in general. I used to smoke myself. I used to be a tenant. And, hell yeah, I lied, too. When it was pouring rain out there, I'd put in a box fan in the window, sit behind it, and blow my smoke out through the fan. I couldn't smell it in the apartment. I thought no one else could, either. Until I quit smoking. Then I realized my little one-bedroom reeked of stale tobacco smoke.
If I lived 70 miles away from my unit, I wouldn't want someone like you in my property, either. It's nothing personal. You're just a bad bet, and the longer you stay, the more pervasive your stench will be in the unit. Even though you don't probably smell it (again, I never did when I smoked), your clothes stink, your fingers stink, your breath stinks. The miasma of your smoking (even outdoors) lingers indoors and sets in for people whose sense of smell isn't trained to ignore the stench. It will cost money and effort to get rid of that stench permanently.
@Jim K. I had a rollercoaster of a time reading this lol. I thought this response was sensational! Your past smoking experiences helped balance out the harsh realities. I would also probably just find somewhere else to live where they aren't as hell-bent on their stance. I think a lot of people do smoke only outside now... back in the 1980s and 1990s probably not much lol.
#3 Investor Mindset Contributor
- Handyman
- Pittsburgh, PA
Quote from @Aryan Strauss:You know, I just realized I didn't answer the OP's original question. No, Aryan, your LL can't evict you for smoking off his property and at least 30 feet away from anyone's door. Nor are you really going to be able to prove your absolute innocence using YOUR cameras and YOUR recording devices to show that you've never smoked in the unit. No one is going to sit through hundreds of hours of DVR or cloud-based footage of nothing to verify that what you say is true according to your "evidence."
Can I be evicted for smoking off of his property and at least 30 feet from anyones door?
I do not live or operate in Utah. I do not know the law or the local eviction procedures in Provo, Utah. I do know that this is not something I would bring before a Pennsylvania magisterial district judge and risk getting laughed out of court by a legal system I might have to go to again with a real problem. Your landlord sounds like a flake, a self-managing hobby landlord who hasn't realized he shouldn't be self-managing if he can't shut his stupid hole when the chips are down and not make empty threats. There are loads of them in this business, sadly.
So if you want to wait out the end of your lease with a dumb landlord who dislikes you and your habits, by all means, go for it. But in the end, it's your landlord's property and not your own. You do not own the roof over your head. You're going to have to accept that this comes with far-ranging consequences, and if your landlord wants you out and has even the least bit of sense, sooner or later, you're going to be hitting the bricks.
As you go through the process of finding another place to live, you'll probably find your new landlord is going to want to talk to your old landlord and ask him how easy you are to work with. I suspect that ship has sailed already. So, finally, I suggest you start saving up aggressively for a down payment on your own place in this tough market. Best of luck, Aryan. Try to keep your future relationships with your landlords less antagonistic.
@Aryan Strauss In a non-smoking building we have lost prospective very qualified applicants because of smokers off the premises. Off the premises is a public side walk (a few steps from the building) and I have to agree with the others smokers do stretch on the rules. Some people are very sensitive to smoke/second hand smoke and will select a building that specifically is non-smoking. Also people who have successfully quit smoking will rent in a non-smoking building because they just do not want to be around smoking. It's the same with pets some people are highly allergic to animals and will specifically rent in a no pet building.
Our Lanscaper will not get out of his truck when smokers are outside complains it interferes with him doing his job.
It's a difficult situation all the way around although sometimes the choices we make create our difficult situation.
@Aryan Strauss
Somehow, this just made me think of Ben Affleck’s line in the movie Good Will Hunting. You’re suspect!!
All kidding aside, only you and your neighbors know the extent of the smoke’s smell from the sidewalk . One thing I would be concerned about however how often do other people around your place smell tobacco/ vape odors.
You could just sit down with your landlord and explain to him in great detail how you overcome some barriers such as:
1. Just exactly how you smoke when it is raining.
2. What you do when it is really cold outside.
3. How do other members in the community get around you when they are walking on the sidewalk (perhaps in pairs or parents with strollers) especially when there is concomitant traffic and you are not stepping back onto the property / grass / lawn to get out of their way.
4. How you manage the cigarette smoke/Vape fumes/odors when the wind is blowing in erratic different directions back towards the property.
I lived in a rental and the upstairs tenants smoked. They smoked on the curb and the wind blew the smoke into our unit almost every time. We eventually moved.
Sounds like you are a respectful smoker! It would be the landlord's responsibility to prove that you are doing this. If you don't do it, then there is no way he has proof of you violating the rule. I would just ignore him. If he is nuts enough to file, that is going to be a great hearing.
@Aryan Strauss read what the lease says about smoking. When you applied, did he ask if you were a smoker and if so, what did you answer? If the wording is such that you can't smoke at all, he could argue you signed the lease and agreed to the terms. Then it would be up to the judge to rule if the lease clause was legal or not. Landlords falsely believe they can just put whatever they want in the lease. It seems that a judge would find smoking off the property on the public right away is not something your landlord can control. I would personally challenge the landlord on this. Respond in writing via certified mail stating you have never smoked on or inside the property. State clearly that you dispute his grounds for eviction and you respectfully ask him to reconsider. I would further state that if he purses this in court, you will seek damages and attorneys fees.
The problem now is your landlord tenant relationship is soured. I would plan on moving when your lease expires, because this landlord is likely to issue you non-renewal or raise your rent. They could also retaliate by taking unfair deductions from your security deposit. When you eventually do move out, take photos of everything and have a couple witnesses smell the property, so they can attest that there is no smoke odor.
I find most of these responses prejudicial. Just because you have had previous tenants who act in one way does NOT mean that I would act in that way. If a smoker is honest up front that they smoke, at the very least, do your due diligence and ask their previous landlords if they had done any smoking on the property.
I started smoking in the mid nineties, when already no one smoked indoors. I was taught to be a respectful and responsible smoker. I have lived in many non smoking properties and have never smoked on the premises at all. I get in my car and drive off the property to smoke. Don’t take my word for it… check with my previous landlords, but don’t rule me out because I have a cigarette on my lunch break in another city.
As far as the smokers who aren’t respectful, I have seen that places that create a designated smoking area that is covered, have no issues with people smoking inside. Smoking is a social habit that turns to addiction. Create a comfortable space for smokers to gather and smoke and they will gather there, they won’t want to smoke inside because they will hope to run into their buddies in the smoking area.
But at the end of the day, don’t judge me because YOU didn’t do your job and check references.